-
Website
http://www.insidethehall.com/ -
Original page
http://www.insidethehall.com/2009/05/06/indiana-at-the-top-of-the-list-for-moses-morgan/ -
Subscribe
All Comments -
Community
-
-
Top Commenters
-
Popular Threads
Some of the comments about contending for National Championships and going to Final Fours just blow my mind. How many 5 star guys did Michigan State have? We are rebuilding a program. Moses Morgan is a top 70 guy who is a quality kid who fits our culture and will turn out to be a solid player at IU. Academics, ball handling, getting stronger, working with his dad - the kid gets it. He would be a solid addition to the rebuilding process and the restoration of the IU program.
Do I want 5 star players ....YES....A team full of them....NOPE....
For all EJ was worth at IU, the one and done love affair was over to quickly. Give me the #68 player in the country, a five star guard like Irving or teague, a local kid like Spencer Turner or D.Davis....that is the type of team I would love to see at IU.....all mixed in with Creek, Hulls, Elston etc.
If this kid signs with IU, with his dad's history, you can bet ....he will be there for 3-4 years, develop as a player and in a few years this NON 5 star player will be the one we cheer the loudest for on Senior night.
The key is finding the right talented players. Look at UNC as a model. They consistently challenge for the top recruiting class every year, and they've won two titles in the last 3-4 years, to along with another Final Four appearance.
You haven't heard a peep about violations or academic problems there. Yes, a few guys like Williams and the guy at GS left after one year, but the nucleus of their two recent title teams were trios of big-time 5 star recruits that were all juniors or seniors. Roy Williams picks the right ones.
You can also look at Kansas and UCLA. They contend every year for Final Fours and top recruiting classes. Other than Love at UCLA, for the most part they've been able to keep these kids on campus for 2-3 years.
I'd much rather go this route than have a great recruit every once in a while and basically be a team that contends in the Big Ten, but is only a national contender every so often.
Recruiting top guys doesn't mean you have to be Calipari or Ohio State. You just have to do it the right way.
Do you want Indiana Kids or 5 star kids....another topic for another day.
I feel like I read a lot of things like "I'd rather have a 3-star kid from Indiana than a top 10 player from somewhere else that might leave early." I totally disagree with that.
As I said before, it's picking the right talented guys. Picking the ones that will stay 2-3 years. Putting talented players in the NBA is a great thing for a program. It attracts more talented players.
Absolutely, we take all the 5 star guys we can get - that fit IU's culture. I'd take a DJ White and an EJ every year, but we can't mix them with Ellis/Crawford/Holman/etc, but they would mix very nicely with all the guys Crean is bringing in.
We do need bigs, but we need quality everything still and I think that's where we are at. I trust CTC has a long term plan in place and I think in a year or two we will be able to address need. Right now I think we take quality guys that will help build the program. 5 star guys obviously would help build the program, and again I'd take them over 3 star homegrown talent, I just don't think it's realistic.
I do think, long-term with CTC, it is realistic.
I just hope we don't feel disappointed with a get like Moses Morgan at this point.
Arthur, Rush, Collison, Chalmers and Aldrich were all either 5 or 4 star recruits. I believe they were actually all 5 star. The point is, they were the right 5 star kids. Arthur, Rush and Chalmers were all juniors I believe, except for Aldrich, but he came back for another year too.
Disdain was probably the wrong word, sorry about that. But the sentiment from a lot of IU fans seem to be that academics, playing hard and being a good person are traits that are separate from being a 5 star recruit. That was my point about UNC. I've never heard a bad thing about Hansbrough, Ellington or Lawson at UNC.
The WAY IU wins is exactly what I'm talking about. It's always been this myth that Bob Knight won titles with teams of scrappy underachievers. Knight's teams that won titles and went to Final Fours were loaded with talent, but the right kind of talent.
Knight's title teams and Final Four teams had tons of top talent, and that's what I hope IU returns too.
Knight's best teams '76, 80', 87 and '92 all had top level talent.
I don't think that's a matter of opinion. It's a fact that Bob Knight's best teams had really good recruits and were really talented. It wasn't like he took Butler or George Mason to the Final Four.
This debate is what sports are all about and what make it fun...Go IU!
TRICHE, Howard.. COLEMAN, Derrick. SEIKALY, Rony..MONROE, Greg. DOUGLAS, Sherman.. BROWER, Derek..THOMPSON, Steve..... AS you can see we won this national championship with a group of scrappy underachievers..Joe Hillman is a classic Bob product but I just don't see the 5 star players you seem to want me to find. GO IU!!
You mentioned 81 too, Isiah was an All-American and Wittman and Tolbert were both Big Ten Player of the Year in their career. I'd say pretty talented.
I'm not saying Knight wasn't a great coach, but I think this idea that his best team weren't extremely talented is false.
I would argue that Thomas is the 2nd best player on that list and Wittman was nearly as successful as Perkins in the NBA.
The point is that Knight was coaching very talented players too. He did not coach 3 star underachievers. When Indiana has won it's been because they had highly talented players to go with a great coach, not out of nowhere underachievers that shocked the world.
But, there are definite questions to have. Does IU need another 6'5 wing player when we have VJ3, Creek, David Williams, Rivers, Watford and Hulls on the perimeter, and could possibly add Irving or Teague? Are there recruits in the mix that are more talented and more ready to contribute from the start?
Obviously Crean knows the answers to these questions better than we do, but I think they are reasonable questions for fans to ask.
Although I too would like to see taller interior type of players (one could still be coming for 2010), I'm content to go with Crean's flow because I see he has a plan and its well thought out and in-line with IU traditions and values.
It's all about picking the right top-rated talent. No reason Crean and Indiana shouldn't be able to do this.
After Oden and Conley left and after recruting 5 star after 5 star after 5 star, OSu has failed to make the NCAA tournament, and then got an 8 seed, in which they were knocked out by Siena. Now, Thad Matta's teams are struggling to have any sort of chemistry, which is pretty essential to a Championship team.
Recruiting 5-stars is good, but to a limit in my opinion.
Again, it's about getting the right 5-star guys. For every Oden, Conley and Derek Rose, there is Hansbrough, Ellington, Lawson, May, Felton, Brandon Rush, Darrell Arthur, Mario Chalmers, Darren Collinson, Mbah a Moute and Aflalo.
It's getting the right ones. Crean can do this, and I'm not sure why we wouldn't want him too.
But I respectfully disagree with your statement that there are plenty of 5 star recruits that fit your profile. First, Scout and Rivals only list 25 five star players per class, so the population is quite restricted. Second, a number of these players are predictably one or two and done kids. Third, not all these kids fit our character and academic needs. Fourth, not all of them want to go to IU.
So I estimate that in any one year IU will be recruiting about 6 players with 5 star rankings (for 2010 we are in on 4 (Barton, Irving, Ferguson and Payne)). The competion will be stiff for these players because of the very qualities you ascribe to them. And while I would like us to be able to land 1 of these kids every year or so, I don't think its reasonable, especially at this point, to expect much more than that.
Why can't we mirror those programs? Our history does.
There's no reason, especially with the talent that routinely comes out of IU's home state, that we can't have recruiting classes that are routinely filled with 5 and 4 star players, with 3 star players sprinkled in, not the other way around.
As I've said multiple times, the key is getting the "right" highly rated players. Again, I'm not suggesting Crean should be at this level today, but it should be the long-term goal, and I believe it is, based on the players Crean is targeting.
I guess it's just a difference of opinion at this point.
We already mirror those programs. Each one of those programs fell on unsuccessful times at one time or another. We are in our down time, but quickly on the rise in my opinion. Some of us are just more patient than others. There are not many major programs that got decimated like we did. It truly is a rebuilding project from the ground up. It is better to surround yourself with quality people in a situation like that, and I commend CTC for seeing the big picture and not taking a shortcut that could further jeopardize the program and, most certainly, his job.
I'm not talking about this year or next year, I'm talking about the long-term strategy.
I fully understand the situation IU and CTC are in. My position is not an anti-CTC position, I think Crean is doing a great job.
The discussion we've been having is the difference between the long-term strategy fans would like IU to take.
However, I did agree with your perspective that Coach Knight won with talent and not just a rag-tag cadre of players. They learned to understand their roles (or transferred out), but they were highly-regarded recruits coming in. Knight was just good at keeping in-state talent in-state with the occasional recruiting defeat to Purdue (Troy Lewis), Kentucky (Kyle Macy), Michigan State (Scott Skiles), Iowa (Jeff Moe), North Carolina (Eric Montross and Rick Fox) and others.
I guess one of my points is why do so many IU fans seems to think that being a good student and having character are mutually exclusive from having basketball talent and being a 5 or 4 star player?
Go to Rivals and look at UNC's classes from the last 6 or 7 years. Almost every class is compiled of 5 and 4 star players with maybe one 3 star sprinkled in.
UNC has been to 3 Final Fours and won two championships in that time, so obviously some of those high ranked recruits became role players and glue guys. Same at Kansas, Duke and UCLA.
Why wouldn't we want IU to be like that? To my knowledge those programs haven't had academic issues and for the most part they haven't had character issues. They've had a handful of top recruits leave after one year, but they've had a large amount stay 3 years. I don't see the problem.
Thanks for the backup on the Knight debate! I'm not discrediting his coaching, he was great, but he had great players too.
I guess you win then. Are we even totally sure Bob Knight actually coached Indiana to three titles? Maybe it was Mary's School for the Blind.
"IU fans don't have "disdain for 5 star recruits" we just admire the the coaches who put together a team with a variety of players." IU can point proudly to players like Joe Hillman etc..."
I never said we won without talent.
I never said we didn't have players who were drafted by the NBA.
I did say were won with a variety of players.
I did say Bob was more coach than recruiter like Dean Smith.
I did say Bob won at West Point with coaching underachievers to point out his coaching over recruiting.
I am sorry if I didn't inject my end of the debate with proper humor I just don't believe you understand what the history of Indiana basketball is all about. Watch "Hoosiers" a few more times. GO IU!
I'm right in that Knights best teams were just (or at least damn close) as talented as Dean Smith's or Roy Williams. You're right that Knight did have a bunch of good solid role players on those teams that he utilized well. I did not mean to indicate that those guys didn't exist. Guys you pointed out like Hillman and Leary.
I hate that this discussion has made me defend Carolina, but Smith's teams had plenty of those role players too, Serge Swicker anyone? No coach can win without role players.
Just to close, you've quoted my "disdain for 5 star recruits" line numerous times in this thread, but in my first response to you I apologized you saying that and indicated that "disdain" was the wrong word.
By the way, I'm very well aware of the history of Indiana basketball, thank you very much.
'76 team:
6 guys played in the NBA, including Kent Benson #1 overall pick and Scott May #2 overall pick. I'd say the top two picks in the draft is pretty loaded for a college team.
'81 team:
4 NBA players, 5 if you include Turner who would have played in the NBA. 3 first round picks. Including Isiah who is a hall of famer.
'87:
This is pretty much where your whole argument lies. Only 3 NBA players and zero first rounders.
'92:
5 NBA players, including 4 first round picks and the college player of the year. Bailey was also drafted but never played.
Once again, I'm not saying Knight isn't and wasn't a great coach. But, his teams that won, for the most part, were extremely talented as well, not just a band of scrappy guys that he coached up. In basketball, the vast majority of the time, the right kind of talent wins.
http://www.mcdonaldsallamerican.com/Alumni_Boys...
I've been discussing Knights best teams, not his entire career. I'm well aware that UNC has had more McDonald's AA, but my point from the start (beginning to wonder if you read anything other than your own posts) has been people (You) act like Knights best teams weren't extremely talented with great players and recruits, that it was all coaching.
You questioned my knowledge of Indiana basketball, I'm questioning your knowledge of any basketball other than Indiana. Go IU.
I never said we didn't have talent. I argued that Bob was more coach than recruiter (like Dean Smith) and that we always had room for kids who were never going to be drafted into the NBA.
I gave Knight's coaching at West Point as an example of his ability to coach underachievers
I gave Carolina's 5 to 1 advantage recruiting McDonald's All Americans as another example. I would remind you that there are only 5 players on the court for each teamGO IU!! keep your sense of humor my hoosier friend.
Further, look up Bob's record against Smith
Personal attacks began with you buddy. I tried to end it by pointing out that we both obviously have points that are correct in this discussion, but you only want to read your own posts and ignore what others say. I apologized for using the word "disdain" but you ignored that too. In another thread I even commented on how much I agreed with you on another point, but you ignored that too. So, don't point at me as the one with personal attacks, I tried to make nice and end the discussion by pointing out that we both have legit points.
ONCE AGAIN, I was only discussing Knight's best teams, not his entire career. He did a great job with some of his other teams that weren't as talented. You're obviously one of those Knight loyalists that can't admit that he didn't walk on water. I love Knight, but am able to step back and look at reality. Knight had tons of talent on his title teams, and yes he had role players that he coached up as well. Yes UNC has had tons of talent, but Dean Smith was also a great coach that had role players too.
I look forward to continued debates, agreements and disagreements with you on this great site. Go IU! Can't wait to watch the team develop next year!